2019諾貝爾文學獎今晚揭曉，這位中國女作家殘雪是誰？（中英採訪）

2019年諾貝爾文學獎賠率榜，

中國作家殘雪上榜，高居第三位，

成為大冷門。

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殘雪

，這個名字在中國並不出名，大家提及更多的是她哥哥——鄧曉芒，康德“三大批判”的翻譯者，中國最著名的哲學教授之一。

但在世界文壇，殘雪這個名字卻並不小眾。

殘雪是作品在國外被翻譯出版最多的中國作家之一，她的小說成為美國哈佛、康奈爾、哥倫比亞等世界名校的文學教材，是唯一獲得美國最佳翻譯圖書獎的中國作家，和餘華莫言王蒙等齊名。

殘雪

殘雪原名鄧小華，1953 年生於長沙，是1980年代的先鋒作家，至今已有六百萬字作品，被美國和日本文學界認為是 20 世紀中葉以來中國文學最具創造性的作家之一。其代表作有《赤腳醫生》《山上的小屋》《黃泥街》《蒼老的浮雲》《五香街》等。

為什麼國外這麼出名，但中國廣大群眾卻很少聽過她呢？

作為先鋒派文學家，殘雪的作品比較晦澀難懂，門檻較高，因此如果不是文學愛好者或是文學專業，很少有人會去讀。

值得一提的是，小學畢業的殘雪卻有二十多年的英語自學經歷，堪稱勵志。讀著英文原著成長起來的她可以自己用英文寫文章（曾發表至英國著名報紙《衛報》上），在小說翻譯到國外時還可以自己做英文校對。

藉此機會，小編節選了 Asymptote 上的特約編輯 Dylan Suher 與 Joan Hua 對殘雪的一篇專訪，帶你瞭解這位“小眾”的著名作家。採訪中殘雪探討了自己作品的特質，中國文化對自己作品的影響，與英文譯者的關係，與讀者之間的聯絡，以及對中國當代文壇的看法。

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採訪者

You‘ve switched English translators over the course of your career： the first three collections of yours translated into English were done by Ronald R。 Janssen and Jian Zhang， while the most recent three have been translated by Karen Gernant and Chen Zeping。 What is your relationship with your translators like： is there a collaborative process？ What skills and qualities are necessary， in your estimation， for someone to be able to translate a Can Xue story？

在您的寫作經歷當中，您曾換過幾次英文翻譯家：頭三部翻譯成英文的作品是由 Ronald R。 Jansen 和 Jian Zhang 所譯，而最近期的三部作品則是由 Karen Gernant 和 Chen Zeping 合作翻譯的。請問您與譯者的關係如何？其中是否存在合作空間？就您估計，什麼樣的技能及特質是成功地翻譯一篇殘雪故事所必須具備的？

殘雪

I’m friends with all my English translators。 Altogether， I have five English translators： Ron Janssen and Jian Zhang （who translate collaboratively）， Karen Gernant and Chen Zeping （who translate collaboratively）， and Annelise ［Finegan］。

我同我的英文譯者都是朋友。我一共有五個英文譯者：Ron Jansen，張健（兩人合譯），Karen Gernant，陳澤平（兩人合譯），和 Annelise。

Starting in the 1990s， I put my all into studying English and managed to achieve a certain level of skill with the language。 Ever since Karen and Chen Zeping took over translating my work， I‘ve insisted on reading their translations （and later， Annelise’s translations） and offering the translators my opinions。

從90年代起，我奮力學習英文，掌握了一定的技巧，從 Karen 和陳澤平接手我的作品翻譯以來，我一直堅持閱讀他們的譯文（也包括後來 Annelise ［Finegan］ 的譯文），給譯者提供參考意見。

Can Xue‘s works are truly exceptional； I feel that the most important skill my translators can have is to read the original intensively， thereby having a thorough grasp of the deep underlying humor and general feel of the language in my works。 How precisely they express something in their translations is closely connected with their power to feel and their ability to grasp logic， because these kinds of fictions have already surpassed the profundity of philosophy。

殘雪的作品是很特殊的，我認為最重要的技能是精讀原文，對作品的整體語感和深層幽默有全面的把握。表達的精確性與譯者的感受力、以及邏輯能力有直接關聯。因為這樣的小說已經超越了哲學的深度。

It is most difficult to properly convert one language into another。 Within Chinese， meaning is buried deep， and the language emphasizes subtleties of feeling。 English is more direct and emphasizes clear distinctions。 It’s really difficult to grasp that “degree” of translation。

兩種語言的恰當轉換是最難的。中文含義深，更重感覺的微妙，英文直接，更重辨別的清晰，這個“度”極難把握。

”

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採訪者

You expect a real partnership with your readers。 You have said that they need to be well-read enough in modernism to understand your writing technique， and willing to make the effort to understand the deep structure of your work。 Considering that you expect such a high level of engagement and response on the part of your readers， what is your personal relationship with your readers like？ Do you notice a difference between the response of your Chinese readers to your work and the response of foreign readers to your work？

您期望與您的讀者有個真正的合作關係。您曾說過這些讀者必須具備紮實的現代主義底蘊方才能明瞭您的寫作手法，並需肯下功夫去了解您作品當中深層的結構。倘若您對讀者的投入和迴應期待那麼高，那麼您個人與讀者們的關係又是如何？對於您的作品的反應，您是否注意到華文讀者和外文讀者之間什麼不同？

殘雪

I often interact with my readers in China， and quite a few interviews with me have been published。 And I‘m also on the Web， communicating with netizens。 I also frequently critique my colleagues—I’ve offended almost all my fellow writers and critics。 However， I still must persist in speaking reason and I must maintain my critical position。

在大陸，我經常同讀者互動，出版過好幾本訪談錄。還在網上同網民交流。我也經常批判我的同行，幾乎將所有作家和批評家都得罪了。不過我仍要堅持說理，堅持批判立場。

China has more than a few Can Xue fans， but overall， Can Xue‘s era still hasn’t arrived， because her works are too ahead of the curve， and don‘t conform to commonplace， habitual aesthetics。 So I must continue to do the steady work of bringing my writings into existence。 Chinese readers and foreign readers should have about the same reaction to my writing。 Because my subject matter is universal human nature—the original face of nature。

大陸有不少殘雪迷，不過總的說來殘雪的時代還沒到來，因為她的作品太超前了，不符合一般審美習慣。所以我要繼續紮實工作，讓自己的作品存在。對我的作品的反應，華文讀者和外文讀者應該差不多。因為我的主題是普遍人性，是大自然的本來面貌。

”

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採訪者

Your writing often depicts grotesqueries， bodily disfigurement， and outright violence。 This is a quality it seems to share with works by other writers identified with China’s avant-garde school of the 1980s。 Specifically， the imagery in some ways resembles the early works of Yu Hua， which you have called “the first Chinese works that can truly be said to belong to modernism and to have substance。” How does your approach to writing about violence compare with the approach taken by the other avant-garde writers and how do you yourself feel about depicting violence in your work？

您的著作經常描寫古怪奇醜、肢體殘毀、及全然的暴力。這一項特色似乎近似於其他80年代所謂先鋒派作家們的作品。尤其您作品的意象某種程度上仿若餘華早期的著作，即您曾稱是“中國真正稱得上現代主義而又有內涵的作品”。您描寫暴力的手法和其他先鋒作家有什麼異同之處、能否說說您自己對於您作品中暴力描寫的看法？

殘雪

Writing violence for the sake of violence is vulgar and tasteless。 I am not like some Chinese writers， who get a thrill from the simple depiction of violence。 That‘s called acting out a perversion； there’s no substance to it。

為暴力而寫暴力是沒有品位的。我並不像有的中國作家，對單純的暴力描寫感到津津有味。那叫做變態，沒有內涵。

In a select few of Yu Hua‘s early works， he writes violence in a very remarkable manner， for example， the works in his collection Mistakes by the Riverside。 I even wrote a review of that collection。 But he has several stories where he writes violence and there is no substance to it。 His self-awareness when creating is not strong。 A few of Mo Yan’s depictions of violence are really warped， of low character。

餘華早期的某些作品寫暴力很出色，例如《河邊的錯誤》等。我還寫過評論。但他也有幾個寫暴力的作品並無內涵。他的創作上的自我意識不強。莫言的一些暴力描寫很變態，品位不高。

What does it mean to say something has substance？ It is to say： your depictions of violence must have form， must have a sense of metaphysics to them。 Just like the images in Dante‘s hell， they must depict the true struggles deep within the soul。 Readers read the terrifying images in Dante， but those images push those readers to yearn for their purest ideals。 Your question lumps my writing together with other writers of the eighties， which shows that you haven’t entered deeply into Can Xue‘s works—you need to put more effort into reading！

什麼叫有內涵？就是說你的暴力描寫要有形而上學的意味，它是對靈魂內部真實鬥爭的描繪，就如但丁的地獄影象。讀者讀到了可怕的景象，但這些景象激起了他對最純淨的理想的嚮往。你的問題將我的作品同其他80年代作家一鍋燴，說明你們對殘雪的閱讀並未深入下去，還要努力。

”

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採訪者

You have famously described your work as a “foreign plant growing in the soil of five thousand years of history。” You often talk about the “foreign plant” but only very seldom discuss the “soil of five thousand years of history。” What are your Chinese influences？ “Tales of the strange？” Perhaps the poetry of Li He or Li Shangyin？ How does the “soil of five thousand years of history” nourish your work？You have famously described your work as a “foreign plant growing in the soil of five thousand years of history。” You often talk about the “foreign plant” but only very seldom discuss the “soil of five thousand years of history。” What are your Chinese influences？ “Tales of the strange？” Perhaps the poetry of Li He or Li Shangyin？ How does the “soil of five thousand years of history” nourish your work？

您曾稱您的作品是“異國的植物生長在有五千年曆史的身後的土壤之中”。您常提到這“異國的植物”，卻鮮少論及“五千年曆史的身後的土壤”。您的作品是否承襲了什麼中國文化的影響？志怪小說？或許李賀或李商隱的詩詞？“五千年曆史的身後的土壤”如何滋養您的寫作？

殘雪

We must first clarify this idea—what is Chinese culture？ The food we eat， the clothes we wear， the way we interact with each other， romantic relationships， sense of languages， ways of speaking—do these belong to culture？ Are we immersed in 5000 years of culture？ As a purely modernist artist， would I have more profound， more deeply felt feelings toward Chinese culture than the ordinary person？

首先要弄清一個概念，什麼是中國文化？吃飯穿衣，與人打交道，男女關係，對語言的感覺，說話的方式等等，這些是不是文化？我們是不是浸淫在五千年的文化之中？作為一名純粹的現代藝術家，對這個中國文化的感受會不會比一般人更深、更徹骨？

I have read some of the pieces of Chinese literature that you mentioned； nevertheless， with the exception of Dream of the Red Chamber and some Tang poetry， the others cannot touch my soul。 The essence of Chinese culture that I contemplate is the potential force of ideas like “the unity of heaven and man。” In the past 5000 years， our people have not been conscious of this power， because we have been isolated and closed to the world， and we lack a spirit of independence。

你說的那些中國文學作品我雖然也讀過一些，但除了《紅樓夢》和一些唐詩以外，其他的並不能觸及到我的靈魂。我所思考到的中國文化的精髓，是她那種“天人合一”的潛在力量。這種力量在五千年裡頭並沒有被我們民族意識到，因為我們孤獨封閉，缺少獨立精神。

Yet we are supposed to have this power—an ethnic group that has existed for thousands of years must possess some eternal elements。 If you don’t develop these elements， however， then they will forever remain in darkness and never see the light of day， which also means they will never be able to truly exist。

但我們應該是有力量的，一個民族存在了幾千年，裡面總會有一些不朽的元素。但這些元素你不去開發，它們就永遠在黑暗深處不見天日，也不能真正存在。

My method is to use Western culture as a hoe to unearth our ancient culture， so we can realize its proper value。 Western culture has been “divided” for thousands of years。 I want to now join the two shores—earth and sky， the material and the immaterial—and combine them into one。 And for that task， I have some advantages： namely， the nourishment and enlightenment I receive from 5000 years of history。

我的方法，就是用西方文化的這把鋤頭來開掘我們的古老文化，使它應有的價值得以實現。西方文化“分”了幾千年，我現在要將此岸與彼岸，大地與天空，世俗與虛無合成一個東西。而在這方面我是有優勢的，這個優勢就是五千年曆史給我的滋養，啟示。

”

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採訪者

You‘ve had a very long writing career—you’ve been writing for more than thirty years， a period in which China has changed dramatically， and the market for writing in China has almost completely transformed。 And yet， your writing style seems to remain remarkably consistent。 How do you yourself feel your writing （or your writing process） has changed over the past thirty years？

您如今寫作已經很長一段時日，恐怕有超過三十年了。這期間中國經過了極大的改變，而中國的寫作市場亦幾乎天翻地覆地轉型。儘管如此，您的寫作卻似乎長久保持著一定的風格。您自認您的寫作（或寫作過程）在過去三十年之中如何演變了？

殘雪

The small changes within Chinese literary circles in the past few decades can hold no significance within the several thousand years of literary history； these changes have had absolutely no influence on my writing。 My writing shifts gradually。 What it obeys are the laws inherent in my creative process—an evolution， a gradual， continuous revealing of new life。 I whole-heartedly detest writing to follow the crowd； I have always been incompatible with the Chinese literary world。

中國文壇這幾十年的小小變化在幾千年的文學史中並不能佔據重要位置，它的變化對我的寫作毫無影響。我的寫作是徐徐變化的，它遵循的是我的創作本身的規律——一種新生命的逐步揭示與演變。我最討厭跟風的寫作，我一貫與中國文壇格格不入。

”

（中英文來源：Asymptote）